{"id":4250,"date":"2013-07-08T03:00:41","date_gmt":"2013-07-08T10:00:41","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/?p=4250"},"modified":"2025-03-05T11:19:50","modified_gmt":"2025-03-05T16:19:50","slug":"when-a-woman-gets-negged","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/2013\/07\/08\/when-a-woman-gets-negged\/","title":{"rendered":"When a Woman Gets Negged"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><b>In the fitness community, there&#8217;s a lot of hand-wringing about women who shy away from challenging workouts, particularly lifting weights, because they don&#8217;t want to get &#8220;too big&#8221; or &#8220;bulky.&#8221;<\/b> A typical formula for &#8220;addressing&#8221; this concern is to deny the possibility &#8211; to claim it&#8217;s &#8220;impossible,&#8221; relying on physiologic factors like testosterone level or, making the leap that such a description can only apply to competitive bodybuilders, to then &#8220;reassure&#8221; women that it takes years of work and careful supplementation to achieve that size.<\/p>\n<p>Somewhere along the way, people in the fitness community have forgotten that <b>women are bombarded with images about how important it is to be small, <\/b>often in high-circulation print and broadcast media where more money is spent on advertising alone in a single quarter than the fitness industry generates in a full year. And for many women, those are not the most damaging messages. That distinction belongs to the <b>personal remarks made by people in their lives<\/b>.<\/p>\n<div align=\"center\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/mlkshk.com\/r\/S4ZM\" \/><br \/>\n<i>Best part? In May she got a 20% raise at work!<\/i><\/div>\n<p>Yes, Virginia, women do get told &#8220;You don&#8217;t want to do that &#8211; you will get big&#8221; or, as I was once told by a man pinching my biceps, &#8220;<i>That&#8217;s<\/i> not attractive.&#8221; I was lucky &#8211; it was pretty obvious to me that the guy was being a jerk, but <b>women get these messages from people they love and who love them<\/b>, too. When it happens it can be confusing and upsetting. There are a lot of factors at play, and <b>suggestions like &#8220;use x snappy comeback&#8221; or &#8220;ignore and move on&#8221; are not sufficient responses to women&#8217;s concerns in this area<\/b>.<\/p>\n<h2>Where does it come from?<\/h2>\n<p>Let&#8217;s stipulate that there is a lot of sexist societal baggage about acceptable size and strength for women, without worrying too much about what, exactly, that size is. I hope this is not controversial. I talked about some of the challenges women have faced in this area <a href=\"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/2013\/03\/08\/on-international-womens-day\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">a few months ago, on the occasion of International Women&#8217;s Day<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>We can also look at the covers of women&#8217;s magazines &#8211; no need to look inside. I hear <b>people dismiss this media as if it&#8217;s foolish and irrelevant. There is some truth to that, depending on your demographic, but publishers aren&#8217;t in the charity business<\/b>. These magazines survive and thrive because they have big, paying markets. Even not-terrible <i>Women&#8217;s Health<\/i>, which occasionally admits right on the cover that some women are <a href=\"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/07\/womenshealtholivia-512x640.jpg\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i>more than 40 years old<\/i><\/a>, has typically diminishing, critical cover messages:<\/p>\n<div align=\"center\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/07\/womens-health-magazine-2012-500.jpg\" \/><\/div>\n<p>These messages did not invent the problem, and indeed most media producers insist they are merely offering what women request. They are selling solutions for a need that many of us carry with us already: to be more attractive, more organized, healthier, happier. <b>Media is under pressure to provide solutions rather than open-ended methods<\/b>. So while most people can achieve those goals only with careful introspection, planning, incremental change, and frequent re-routing as they discover the right path, well, hey, that message won&#8217;t sell magazines &#8211; let alone fit on the cover.<\/p>\n<h2>&#8220;Don&#8217;t touch that &#8211; you&#8217;ll get hurt!&#8221;<\/h2>\n<p>When we are children, we receive warnings from our caregivers &#8211; <i>be careful, it&#8217;s hot! Wear a helmet when you ride your bike! Don&#8217;t dive in shallow water!<\/i> <b>Social learning means we don&#8217;t have to make all the same mistakes that other people have made &#8211; we can learn from others<\/b> (and go on to make new mistakes). <b>This works for many reasons &#8211; <\/b>kids do some of that stuff anyway, get hurt, and realize the warnings are meaningful, sure, but <b>most of us, from early in childhood, want the good opinion of those who matter to us<\/b>.<\/p>\n<p><b>As we get older<\/b>, the messages get more complex, bound more tightly in societal expectations. <b>The landscape is complicated by competing sources of pressure and approval<\/b>. <i>If you do that, it will go on your permanent record. If you don&#8217;t do this, you won&#8217;t get into a good college.<\/i> Girls get a big dose of <i>Don&#8217;t do that &#8211; boys won&#8217;t like you.<\/i> Or worse, <i>Don&#8217;t do that &#8211; boys won&#8217;t respect you.<\/i><\/p>\n<p>Unfortunately, the toothpaste is out of the tube: there&#8217;s plenty of boys out there that don&#8217;t respect you, and never will. And the more you do to become respectable &#8211; even admirable &#8211; the less they&#8217;ll like it. A friend of mine summed up the extreme of this attitude in <a href=\"http:\/\/www.joeydevilla.com\/2013\/03\/19\/douche-vs-reasons-why-toronto-is-the-worst-city-in-north-america-for-men\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">&#8220;Douche V\u2019s&#8221; Reasons Why Toronto is the Worst City in North America for Men<\/a>, which includes a run-down of this character&#8217;s profile in the &#8220;Pickup Artist&#8221; community. If you&#8217;ve heard about these people and don&#8217;t want to follow the link, here&#8217;s the take-home message: this pickup artist finds Toronto an unwelcoming environment because it is difficult to &#8220;date up&#8221; &#8211; hard to get the attention of women who have better education and pay rates.<\/p>\n<p>I bring these guys up not because they&#8217;re particularly important. Most of us will go our whole lives without ever being approached by someone like this. But they&#8217;ve codified a particular style of approaching strangers that they call <b>&#8220;negging&#8221; &#8211; starting with a backhanded compliment or calling attention to a defect or failure, to get someone off balance and prime them for seeking approval.<\/b> Pickup artists defend this practice as &#8220;banter,&#8221; and say everyone is having fun, but teasing, potentially insulting humor generally works best among people who already know each other well. Parodied by <a href=\"http:\/\/xkcd.com\/1027\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">xkcd<\/a>, negging attracts some pretty angry responses \u2014 it&#8217;s a bad-faith way to approach someone, and the fact that it can &#8220;work&#8221; (ie, lead ultimately to a one-night stand) can make it look predatory.<\/p>\n<div align=\"center\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/07\/20130212.png\" \/><br \/>\n<i><a href=\"http:\/\/chainsawsuit.com\/2013\/02\/12\/the-keep-her-guessing-bouquet\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Keep-Her-Guessing Bouquet at Chainsaw Suit<\/a><\/i><\/div>\n<p>In the pickup artist community, one of the high-visibility members likes to take credit for inventing the &#8220;neg,&#8221; but this is absurd. <b>We&#8217;ve all been negged over the course of our lives<\/b>, often by family members, other kids at school, maybe even our teachers, sometimes by coworkers or friends. <b>It&#8217;s a time-tested technique of bullies<\/b>. And it is exactly what is happening when a stranger or a close friend or family member tells a woman anything along the lines of &#8220;why are you lifting weights? That&#8217;s not attractive.&#8221;<\/p>\n<h2>How do you respond to someone who is trying to diminish you?<\/h2>\n<p>A stranger approaches you as you do farmers walks. &#8220;They&#8217;re going to work your traps. Guys don&#8217;t like girls with traps.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>A family member, present when you happily report a personal best, says, &#8220;That is stupid and disgusting. Girls don&#8217;t LIFT 105, they WEIGH 105.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>A casual acquaintance at your gym says, &#8220;You&#8217;re doing great, just don&#8217;t go overboard &#8230; you don&#8217;t want to lose your femininity.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p><b>These remarks represent expectations about what women are, and what women want<\/b>, that may or may not have anything to do with what matters to you. They may represent an honest difference in opinion about what &#8220;femininity&#8221; looks like. They might just be a lightly veiled way of saying &#8220;I like you less than I used to.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>We tend to have one of three responses to such challenges. <b>1. We may disagree with them, and simply reject them<\/b> &#8211; &#8220;Do I look like I care what you like?&#8221; <b>2. We may agree with them, but disagree with the recommended change in behavior<\/b> &#8211; &#8220;I haven&#8217;t weighed 105 since I was 10 years old, and I don&#8217;t expect to see it again while I&#8217;m alive.&#8221; <b>3. We may agree with them and doubt our course of action<\/b> &#8211; &#8220;Yes, I am making good progress, but am I risking something I value in the process?&#8221;<\/p>\n<p><b>When a stranger says these things, it is easy to have Response 1, but they can be confusing when they come from a loved one.<\/b> Family relationships don&#8217;t guarantee kindness \u2014 family members or close friends may be more likely to speak impulsively or unkindly, and then use the &#8220;trying to help&#8221; or &#8220;being honest&#8221; defense, because they know the connection gives their remarks power, even plausibility. <b>Women can be vulnerable to this approach, because they are so often reminded throughout childhood that they should keep their voices down, avoid confrontation, &#8220;be good.&#8221;<\/b><\/p>\n<p><b>What you say in these situations is less important than how you think about them for yourself.<\/b> A nonplussed silence is a good option in public situations with strangers &#8211; there is no good reason to escalate an unpleasant interaction, and most people won&#8217;t persist when they get little response. With people you know, you must decide whether to seize a teachable moment, pick your battles (that is, maybe not this one), or just shut them down with a reply that is equally sharp. These options depend on the closeness and respect in the relationship.<\/p>\n<div align=\"center\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/mlkshk.com\/r\/OK13\" \/><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/seokim.tumblr.com\/post\/42274728344\/jimmy-is-pretty-heavy-note-thats-bubble-my\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i> \u2014 by Seo Kim<\/i><\/a><\/div>\n<p><b>Whatever path you choose, you must walk it with confidence<\/b>, and this can be a daunting prospect, especially if you have recently adopted a new fitness regimen. You may be aware mostly of how much you have yet to learn, excited about where you are but perhaps unsure of your long- or even medium-term goals. That <b>uncertainty should not deprive you of the ability to say, if only to yourself, &#8220;I&#8217;m making the decisions that make the most sense for me right now, and I&#8217;m looking forward to seeing where this plan takes me.&#8221;<\/b> It&#8217;s an attitude that some of your detractors may be surprised to watch someone adopt, and it&#8217;s the best foundation for your belief that you can set new goals, and do the research, planning, and action to accomplish them.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Mostly I just get weirdness from people at the gym when I&#8217;m by myself \u2013 the completely unwanted and unnecessary spot, a woman passing by me lifting decided to share &#8220;you&#8217;re scary,&#8221; 20-something bro watching me finish my set needs to tell me &#8220;you&#8217;re stronger than me,&#8221; then lurk behind me for a whole &#8216;nother set&#8230;. My answer was &#8220;I weigh more than you and have been lifting longer than you, of course I&#8217;m stronger.&#8221; I noticed him watching me a couple more times that day. Poor guy just couldn&#8217;t seem to get his head around the fact that I existed. \u2014<i>Sharon Moss, strength-sports competitor<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Moss sums it up so right, from the strange &#8220;public property&#8221; attitude so many women experience, even from other women, to the mild sense of threat from men who seem never to have contemplated that men&#8217;s and women&#8217;s abilities overlap. She enjoys the advantage of support from her close connections, but even those of us who don&#8217;t can benefit from this mindset of simple logic, applied within a diligent, consistent program. One of the great pleasures of advancing in any area is, after all, the confidence that comes with your growing ability and clearer vision for your goals.<\/p>\n<p><b><a href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Coco_Chanel\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Coco Chanel<\/a> probably never touched a barbell, and she is famously quoted, &#8220;A girl should be two things: classy and fabulous.&#8221; She is also quoted, &#8220;A girl should be two things: who and what she wants.&#8221; A confident woman who can clean and press 200 lb can easily be all four.<\/b> And in any case, maybe she&#8217;ll be so &#8220;big&#8221; that few will dare to say otherwise.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In the fitness community, there&#8217;s a lot of hand-wringing about women who shy away from challenging workouts, particularly lifting weights, because they don&#8217;t want to get &#8220;too big&#8221; or &#8220;bulky.&#8221; A typical formula for &#8220;addressing&#8221; this concern is to deny the possibility &#8211; to claim it&#8217;s &#8220;impossible,&#8221; relying on physiologic factors like testosterone level or, [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[4],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-4250","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-fitness"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p4OKzG-16y","jetpack-related-posts":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4250","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4250"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4250\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5691,"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4250\/revisions\/5691"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4250"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4250"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/caitlinburke.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4250"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}